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Wednesday, 27 May 2009

  • Regarding Joseph Smith, the Apostasy, and the Restoration: Part 1


    One of the hardest things for people to believe is that God and Jesus Christ appeared to someone like Joseph Smith, a mere boy of fourteen.  Yet these same people will believe that the Virgin Mary appeared to a girl named Bernadette, or that a statue cried tears of blood, or that an image of Christ miraculously shows up in a photograph, in the clouds, or in some other unlikely place.  And what about Joan of Arc?  Many revere her as a saint, but how is that event any different than Joseph Smith's experience?
     
    People believe that the heavens are closed; that God no longer speaks to men and that there will be no more revelations.  Yet many of these same people believe in angels, or claim to have even seen one; they believe in miracles and that God answers prayers, thus contradicting themselves.
     
    I have to wonder, "Do people believe what they want to believe because they don't want God telling them what to do with their lives; how to live, what to do and what not to do?"  I find this amazing because I believe in a living, loving God who is just as much alive today as he was back in the days of Christ.  Do people really think that God is incapable of speaking to men these days?  Why would He no longer have anything to say to us?  We live in a totally different world as far as environment and circumstances, than those who lived in the early centuries.  We have different dangers on a much grander scale, more hunger, crime, and wickedness.  Look at all the devastation that's supposed to come and is already here; all the fires, tornadoes, hurricanes, earthquakes, floods, and diseases.
     
    In the past, God has always been there for the righteous; for those who obeyed and followed his commandments.  In fact, the ONLY time he has ever turned his face and left men to themselves was when they turned to wickedness, which in God's eyes, is when they are NOT OBEDIENT to Him.  "Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways."  (Acts 14:16) and "Then shall they cry unto the Lord, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time as they have behaved themselves ill in their doings."  (Micah 3:4).  He also describes sin as this: "Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law."  (1 John 3:4)
     
    So if God no longer speaks to men it's because they are no longer following His laws, commandments, and ordinances, as HE established them through Jesus Christ, but instead, they have perverted them; made changes to them by incorporating their own interpretations, philosophies, and traditions into them.  This all occurred in the second and third centuries of Rome when the great intellectual scholars and philosophers all DEBATED over the doctrines of Christ and made changes as they saw fit.  This is all documented history, and is proof that there was indeed an apostasy from the original doctrines of Christ.  The apostles of Christ were constantly warning the saints to NOT DEBATE over the doctrines, but to remain faithful to what they have been taught by the apostles through the spirit.  So, if sin is the transgression of God's laws, then this prophecy was fulfilled a long time ago: "The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant."  (Isaiah 24:5). 

    Many scriptures now seem to contradict one another because in the rewriting of them errors have crept in whether it was intentional or not.  Take a look at Hebrews 6:1 for example: "Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection."  How can one go on to perfection without the principles of Christ?  Isn't that why Christ came and taught the pure doctrines of God in the first place; to correct the errors of the Jews and to bring the higher teachings and ordinances that were essential for our eternal salvation?  And if the Jews made errors in their interpretations, how can we think that we're so perfect that we can go over 2,000 years without any errors?  This is exactly why there had to be a restitution of all things in the latter days as well.
    Men had turned wicked; they had killed the apostles and what was left of the true followers of Christ, thus fulfilling these prophecies: "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievious wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also OF YOUR OWN SELVES shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them. (Acts 20:29-30) and "I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. (Galatians 1:6-7)  Now, if you look at what happened in the second and third centuries, this is exactly what happened; this prophecy was fulfilled way back then, and even tells of the downfall of Christ's own church.  Many traditional Christians think this refers to those who fall away and no longer BELIEVE in God or Jesus Christ; who are atheists or some other pagan religion.  But in fact, it refers to ANYONE who attempts to make changes to the original laws and doctrines of Christ other than those who were authorized to make changes, namely, the apostles who had the keys and the power and authority to do so.  This doesn't include men like Marcion, Justin, Valentinus, and others who debated over the scriptures, and took it upon themselves to rewrite and make changes according to what they believed.  These changes are what "traditional" Christian doctrines are based on, and like the Jews of old, they have erred in their understanding of the scriptures because of the errors of our forefathers in those earlier centuries.
     
    Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you." (1 Corinthians 11:2)  If you look at all the churches today, can you honestly say they are keeping ALL the laws, commandments, and ordinances, as Christ delivered them?  God no longer speaks to men because they have been picking and choosing what they want to believe and what they don't for so long. Instead of seeking HIS will and desire and worshiping Him according to HIS terms; people follow their own desire by worshiping as THEY please, believing what THEY want, making justifications and THINKING they are following God when, in reality, they're just following their own desires.
     
    Because of all the changes that were made to the original doctrines of Christ, all of the above prophecies have been fulfilled. The teachings of Christ that were delivered by him in their purity have all been defiled by men.  They have been changed; altered here and there throughout history by men like Marcion, Justin, and Valentinus, who not only changed things, but rewrote many of the scriptures.  Many things that were considered sacred scriptures by the saints were tossed out when the canon or Bible was first organized, and even then, men sat around arguing and debating over the scriptures and finally VOTED on what was to be included and what wasn't.  As Isaiah said, "they have TRANSGRESSED the laws, CHANGED the ordinance, BROKEN the everlasting covenant."
     
    The doctrines that Christ and his apostles taught in their purity (as they were first delivered by them) were EVERLASTING doctrines that were not to be changed or altered, EVER!  Why?  Because they were (and are) ESSENTIAL for  our eternal life and salvation; we cannot be saved without them!  Christ laid
    down His laws and commandments for all men, not just a certain few, and they were to be unchanging laws; not one jot or tittle was to be changed (Matthew 5:18) because He is an unchanging God; the same yesterday, today, and forever (Hebrews 13:8), and He is no respecter of persons—what He says to one, He says to all (Acts 10:34; Romans 2:11).

     

    Again, we must ask the question—why are there so many different Christian churches today that have such a wide variety of beliefs regarding the teachings and doctrines of Christ?  Why do some churches believe one thing, and others believe something else?  Why do they differ so much in their interpretations of the same scriptural verses?  It’s because the founder of each denomination believed something different than the other churches that were already in existence.  Although they all used basically the same Bible, they each had their own views, their own opinions and interpretations of the Bible, and they each sought after God in their own way—to worship Him “as they pleased.”  This was the very reason why many of our forefathers came to America in the first place—so they could worship God in THEIR OWN WAY and not be forced to adopt whatever religion the king happened to be practicing at the time.

     

    Because they worshiped according to the dictates of their own hearts, many broke off from the churches that were in existence, and started new ones.  And in the process, they were able to convince others to believe as they did, thereby leading many away to draw disciples unto themselves.  If you think about it, most of the existing Christian denominations were (at one time or another) apostates because they broke off from another church, or were started by someone who protested the teachings of the churches that were in existence.  That’s why they were called Protestants; they protested the teachings of, and broke off from the Roman Catholic Church.  Instead of forming one church that taught all the same doctrines, that was of the same mind and spirit with sound doctrine; one in faith, baptism, doctrines and ordinances, and works; there were many different churches formed, each with their own beliefs and interpretations of the scriptures.  Doesn't this sound like the prophecy that refers to us as ". . . children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine" (Ephesians 4:14)?


    I use a Christian curriculum in homeschooling my kids, and in the 7th grade history book, in studying the Dark and Middle Ages, and the Reformation Movement, I can't understand why more Christians today cannot see or accept the circumstances in which the Bible was compiled.  Even in this history book they mention how one of the most important characteristics of the Middle Ages was the distortion of Christianity and the many errors of the Roman Church; yet they accept a book of scriptures that had been argued and debated over, rewritten, with things added and taken away as these men voted on what was acceptable and what wasn't, and was compiled under the very circumstances that the apostles warned against; and they still consider it to be the pure word of God.

     

    Christianity did indeed spread throughout the world, but with so many different denominations worshiping as THEY chose to worship, according to what they believed; Christ’s original laws, commandments, doctrines, and ordinances became so adulterated by all the changes that they were no longer in their pure, original form as Christ had originally established them.  These changes are obvious when we study the history of Christianity.  Christians today do not like to hear this because IF it is true, then it would mean that they have been wrong all along.  Just like the Jews who originally had the pure teachings of the prophets, but later erred in their understanding of the scriptures because they started following the "traditions" of their fathers, and rejected Christ when he came with higher laws; it is now the Gentiles who are following the "traditions" of their forefathers (the changes made in Christianity back in those early centuries of Rome) and reject the truths that have been restored back to the earth (another example of the first shall be last and the last shall be first).

     

    If the power and authority of God, and the keys of the kingdom to bind and seal all things on earth and in heaven, were taken from the world because of the wickedness of men, then they could NOT be brought back through a reformation of the chaos that existed when men made changes to the doctrines and ordinances.  Reformation means to take something that already exists and improve it or make it better.  Men no longer had the power and authority of God because they argued and debated over His doctrines, and fell away from the pure truths; so what was lost to the world would have to be restored or brought back by someone who had that power and authority.  In other words, it would have to come directly from heaven just as it did in the ancient times.  This too, was prophesied in the Bible because the Lord knew this great apostasy would occur. 


    To restore something is to bring it back into existence; to bring back to a former, original, or normal condition.  Restitution means pretty much the same thing: it's the restoration of property rights (or teachings, doctrines, and ordinances in this case) previously taken away, conveyed, or surrendered.  It is the restoration to the former or original state or position.  This is why the Reformation Movement back in the sixteenth century could not work in the eyes of God; they had lost the power and authority, they were left without the Holy Ghost because of their iniquity; they argued and debated over the doctrines because they could not understand them because they were without the Spirit of God; and were left unto themselves.  These were the very things the apostles warned the saints NOT to do, and had prophesied of the downfall of the church and of this great apostasy! If we look throughout the Old and New Testaments we can find that this cycle has been repeated several times throughout the history of mankind. When they obey God's laws and commandments they are blessed, when they disobey they are chastised, warned, and in some cases, God turns His head and leaves them to themselves.  When they hit bottom, they repent and start keeping the laws and commandments, and are blessed once again.  It's a constant up and down cycle that keeps repeating itself.


    We cannot take something that was perfect to begin with (when it was first established for us by Christ) and change it to make it better!  Better in whose eyes?  Certainly not God's for He established them in their perfect form when Christ set up and organized His church.  When you have something perfect from God to begin with there IS NO making it better unless it's to please men rather than God.  And that is exactly what happened.  Instead of religion being the following of and obedience to the laws, commandments, doctrines, and ordinances that God Himself had established for us; religion is now something that we can pick and choose from according to whatever we desire, like deciding what to choose from a menu in order to satisfy our own taste palette.  We choose what we want to believe, such as we are saved by belief and that our works don't matter, even when it goes against the majority of everything else that Christ and his apostles have ever taught.  It never occurs to us that maybe in those passages there may be more than what we are actually seeing with our physical eyes.  Christ does not contradict himself, especially when one thing seems to be out of context with everything else he taught.  It's all right there in the Bible, but the vast majority of Christians just love to cling to that one idea because they can physically see it and it sounds good to them.  But, how easy is that?  Too easy; the broad and easy path that will eventually lead to destruction if we insist on clinging to it.  The devil has really deceived the minds of men with his cunningness throughout the ages.  We cannot base things on a few individual verses and completely ignore everything else that was said in the majority of his teachings.

     

    Secondly, we cannot take something that has been changed and has existed in this altered manner for centuries, and then try to reform it.  No matter how much we try, it cannot be fully restored back to its original state of existence, not without the power and authority by which it was originally established.  If that power and authority was lost and no longer exists, then only God can bring it back as He originally established it through His Son Jesus Christ, and by once again, calling and ordaining His servants through the power and authority of the Holy Ghost and the Holy Melchizedek Priesthood, which were supposed to have been everlasting but were taken away because of the transgressions of men.

    Thus, we read in the Bible: "For the Lord hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.  And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which men deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it is sealed: And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I am not learned."  (Isaiah 29:10-12) 

    "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me IS TAUGHT BY THE PRECEPT OF MEN: therefore, behold, I will proceed to do A MARVELLOUS WORK among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."     (Isaiah 29:13-14).

    Also:  

    "Move over, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it for Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, for Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel and his companions: and join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand."  (Ezekiel 37:16-17).

    What is this book that was to be delivered to a learned man who says he can't read it because it is sealed?  What is this marvelous work and a wonder the Lord is speaking of?  We know the writings of the stick of Judah is the Bible; what is this stick of Joseph; the stick of Ephraim?  It is a SECOND witness of Jesus Christ that was hidden up and saved so that it would remain untouched and undefiled by men; to be brought forth in the latter-days when the restitution of all things that were lost to the world was to occur.  This is the great and marvelous work that the Lord was going to perform.  All of God's teachings, doctrines, and ordinances that had been changed and tampered with by men throughout the ages, would be restored back to the earth in their purity once again.  These everlasting principles had to be divinely restored because without them, we cannot be saved.  If the world believes that we can be saved just by believing, then they are just ignoring everything else that Christ taught, and are following the easy doctrines of men who had made changes to the pure teachings of Christ. 

    The Book of Mormon is another witness of Jesus Christ.  Just as the Bible is a written history of God's dealings with men, the Book of Mormon is also a history of His dealings with men in a different location.  It's purpose is to testify and witness to the world that Jesus Christ is indeed the Son of God, the Savior and Messiah of the world.  It is a second witness of his divinity for two witnesses are greater than one, and most importantly, it reveals simple truths that were lost to the world because of wicked and evil designing men who defiled the doctrines and ordinances of God, and who have deceived the world for centuries.


    To be continued . . .


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Sunday, 17 May 2009

  • Physical Evidence and Eye Exams

    The following is a guest post by J_Goldens_Shadow@xanga :              

    Physical Evidence and Eye Exams

     It was a chilly November night in Bellingham, Washington. My glasses prescription was expired and my eyes were straining to see clearly with my current pair. I walked into the Wal-Mart to get the new prescription and didn't expect anything to really come from it, other than being able to see a little clearer. As I sat in the exam chair, the optometrist saw my black name tag and smiled slightly. As he turned to his equipment to start the exam he turned toward me and said, "So, Elder Wirig, you're Mormon?"

    "I'm a missionary for The Church of Jesus Christ, yeah."

    "If you don't mind, I have a few questions for you after the exam," he said. "If you don't mind," adding quickly.

    A sick feeling settled over me, but my mind was honed to teach at every available moment. So I agreed.

    The exam went smoothly, and I got my prescription. Then the questions came.

    "So do you believe that anyone who is not a Mormon will go to Hell?" What a way to start, eh?

    "No, I don't. God is a lot more just than just sending people to Hell because they don't believe."

    That threw him for a loop. Then came the next question: "There is mounds of evidence for the Bible. The city of Jerusalem, Bethlehem, not to mention a few others that have been found, and yet there is none for the Book of Mormon. Isn't that proof that it's false?"

    This led to a 45 minute conversation on evidences. I pointed out evidences that were there (STELA 5, Quetzelcoatl, etc), but they were brushed off as "singular instances".

    It seemed that this self-proclaimed "intellectual" thought that lack of evidence equaled total error. This was very frustrating and I probably would have dwelt more on it if I didn't come across Paul's words the next morning in 1 Cor. 3:19: "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness." Whatever his education or "wisdom" may have been, the issues of faith cannot be debated on that kind of playing field. He refused to recognize truth because of the lack of physical evidence. The principles taught in a school classroom, while useful, are not enough to bring salvation or exaltation. While they may be valuable in this world, they are nothing compared to the aspects of all eternal knowledge.

    Despite what many people outside of the LDS Church may think, the Bible sustains it and those who teach the principles it teaches. Wisdom alone will not suffice. Past wisdom in the medical fields suggested bleeding people to get rid of illnesses. Doctors would use arsenic and other perilous drugs to try to cure diseases. Past wisdom taught that anyone who was deaf was dumb and could be taught to hear and speak. While wisdom is essential in finding truth, the light of the Lord and the whisperings of the Still Small Voice declare and testify of the truth. Wise men dispute, debate, and argue variables of so-called "wisdom", but the Spirit will confirm all truth.

    Taking issues of so-called physical evidence on whether or not the Bible or Book of Mormon is true is just like setting logical limits to God. We as mere mortals only have an inkling of the works, powers, and abilities of God. The issue of finding truth in religion can never rest with logical arguments. The answer can never be logical, because it is infinitely THEO-LOGICAL. We walk in faith in this life. We believe that in walking by that faith, gaining wisdom through the scriptures and the teachings of modern prophets. By the power and authority of the Holy Ghost, the truth will be manifest.

    That eye doctor tried refuted the lack of evidences in trying to rebuke the Book of Mormon. I never saw him again. However, I've wondered how the conversation would go if I did. More than likely, I would point out that the Bible is the Word of God, but that through the ages, several teachings were either changed or deleted. As far as physical evidences, there is not one Roman or Greek government citation coming from Jerusalem dating back to AD 33 about the crucifixion of the Lord. Historical WISDOM shows us that those two cultures were meticulous record keepers, and yet they failed to record this event as well as the controversy surrounding the resurrection. There is not one shred of evidence of Noah and the flood. Biological WISDOM suggests that inbreeding causes birth defects, yet after the flood the Bible says that only eight people survived to repopulate the earth. Is that logical? The Lord Himself walked on water. The WISDOM of physics states that a person may be buoyant in water but a person's feet cannot displace enough water to to allow a full grown man to walk on it. In spite of many searches, there is no physical evidence of the exodus out of Egypt by the children of Israel. 40 years and many camps, yet no evidence can be found. How did Moses get water from a rock by hitting it? Geological WISDOM states that rocks do not produce water. How did manna fall from heaven and why has it not fallen since? Because WISDOM dictates that that these events could not occur, does that mean the Bible is wrong? Again, Paul said it best: "For the wisdom of the world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

    Our finite minds cannot understand the miracles, power and works of God. I testify of the truthfulness of the Bible and the Book of Mormon as they testify that Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the entire world. That the teachings of Jesus are universal, and that He, being all powerful and knowledgeable, came to the Americas to teach the ancient inhabitants here. He loved all the people of the earth that He was willing to do this and have another record of His teachings to declare to everyone that He is the Risen Lord, the Only Begotten of the Father, and the Redeemer of all mankind. If anyone admits less than this, then they limit the Love and Power of God, and in fact deny biblical teachings. "But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible" (Matt. 19:26)
     

Wednesday, 13 May 2009

  • How To Obtain Accurate Information


    Whenever I hear the comment, "Why in the world would anyone WANT to be a Mormon?" I have to say to myself, "Why in the world would anyone NOT want to be a Mormon?"  Well, besides the fact that they'll probably have to make some major lifestyle changes, and give up some vices they may not want to part with, in the long run the pros far outweigh the cons.
     
    I once had a good friend who was a real party goer; he loved to drink and socialize, and occasionally, even smoked pot.  I remember about a week before my baptism over thirty years ago, when I first announced to him that I was going to join the Mormon Church, he replied, "Oh no, you don't want to do that!  You won't be able to do anything; you can't smoke, drink and party, have sex or have any kind of fun!"  I answered, "But, Doug (named changed for privacy), I don't do those things anyway!"  "Oh, you're right," he said, kind of disappointedly.  He wished me the best and we still remained friends for many years later.  Of course, he still partied with his other friends and was a real ladies' man, but he has always shown me respect for the choice I made.  Throughout the years we had several good talks over the phone, with the utmost respect for one another, before we eventually lost track of each other as we moved around chasing our dreams.
     
    When Mitt Romney ran for president there seemed to be an upsurge of curiosity about the Mormons and what they believe.  People started asking questions, and there are several ways to get answers to those questions.  One way is to ask anyone you know whether or not they know anything about the Mormons and their beliefs.  The only problem with this is that you'll get a variety of responses from people who "think" they know what the Mormons believe, and most of the information will either be opinions or misinformation from people who have been misguided.  Let me ask you this question; If you were dying from a cancerous brain tumor would you rather have a heart surgeon explain to you, the complicated details of a new brain surgery procedure, or would you trust the information from a specialized brain surgeon who is knowledgeable and up-to-date on all the new procedures?  Who would be better qualified to give you the most accurate information?  Just as you wouldn't go to a heart surgeon for brain surgery -- or you wouldn't ask a plumber for instructions on how to wire your house for electricity -- you shouldn't go to the Baptists, Methodists, Lutherans, Jews, Catholics, etc., if you want to get accurate information about the Mormons.
     
    Which leads to the second way of obtaining answers and information; go DIRECTLY to the source.  Who else is better qualified to give accurate, detailed information about the Mormons than the Mormons themselves.  By the way, Mormon is just a nickname they kind of inherited from others because of the Book of Mormon.  I say they when I really mean we, since I'm including myself among them.  We call ourselves Latter-Day Saints after the latter part of the name of our church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.  This is to distinguish us from the saints of old; the members of Christ's original church were called saints.  At any rate, this is probably the best way to obtain accurate information.  For the most part, the members will be friendly and helpful, and more than happy to answer any questions you may have.
     
    People may feel intimidated because of what they have heard from others.  No, nobody is brainwashed, no one is forced to listen to anything, and no, we're not out to GET you.  Just like you'll find in any other denomination, there are those who are more bold or who seem a little pushy, but that is not what we're all about.  We believe that everyone has the right to believe and worship whatever they will, in whatever manner they so choose.  We teach those who are seeking for answers; who want more than what is already out there.   After hearing the things that we have to teach, only you can decide what you want to do.  We encourage people to do as the Lord counseled through his servant, James, "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."  (James 1:5) 
     
    You can listen to anyone, and get all kinds of advice and information, but you can rely only on one, the Lord himself.  Ask him in prayer, and if you're heart is sincere he will know it, and he will provide you with the answer through the power of the Holy Ghost witnessing to your heart, just as he did in the days of old.  "And they said to one another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"  (Luke 24:32)  This is how truth has always been revealed, through the power of the Holy Ghost witnessing to the heart of those who are seeking.  This is the duty of the Holy Ghost; to reveal truth, to teach, warn, guide, and direct; to witness and testify of the truth to those who are pure in heart.
     
    And finally, the third way of obtaining information is to gather it yourself by reading books, searching the internet, watching videos or DVD's.  Just like the first method, there are more chances of obtaining misinformation this way.  Make sure the books you read are published by the church or by an LDS publisher.  The same goes for the videos and DVD's, as well as the internet; make sure you're getting information from a reliable sourch.  If there's a lot of negativity then chances are the information is from someone trying to give out false information about the church to prevent people from obtaining the real truths about what we believe or don't believe.
     
    I have been on both sides of the fence, and have had many experiences in my search for truth.  I can see things from the non member's point of view as well as from the member's point of view.  I'll be posting many excerpts from both sides of my experiences onto this site.  If you want accurate information, check back here often.  Until next time, may God be with you and bless you in all your needs.

    If you'd like to reply or comment, please click here for guidelines and conditions.  Thanks for stopping by and have a great day!


Sunday, 10 May 2009

Friday, 08 May 2009

  • Sin, Condemnation, and the Atonement

    The following is part of an ongoing discussion between newguy153@xanga and myself (see earlier posts and comments).  I want to say that I really appreciate his insight and his skill in being able to carry on a controversial conversation without losing control.  I have not met very many people who can do this and I not only commend him for it, but I highly admire and respect him for it as well.  He is very intelligent, and even though we disagree on many points, I sincerely enjoy our conversations and am learning things from him as well.  If anyone else would like to join in please check out the guidelines and conditions for participating here.


    I agree with you that God cannot allow any kind of sin in His presence, but Romans 8:1-2 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."  Those who were in Christ were those who were baptized into his church, who made covenants to keep and obey God's laws and commandments, obedience being the key word and the law of the Spirit of life (God).  The members of his church did not walk after the flesh, in other words, they repented of their sins and no longer did those things that were unrighteous in the eyes of God.  If they did fall back into sin, as long as they sincerely repented and were willing to abandon that sin, they were forgiven through the atonement of Christ.  If they didn't repent and forsake that sin, then the sin was not covered by the atonement (Hebrews 10:26).  By following the laws and commandments of God, they were living righteously and were able to live by the promptings of the Spirit (the Holy Ghost which they had received by the laying on of hands after they were baptized into the church), rather than living just by the flesh.

    ("...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." --Hebrews 10:14

    "forever" I think is the key word there. This is total justification we're talking about, not something temporary or incomplete.)

    I think a better key word would be "holy", those who are being made holy.  Who were they?  Those who had been sanctified by both water and Spirit; those who kept and obeyed the laws and commandments of God, who had entered the new and everlasting covenant.


    The whole chapter of Hebrews 10 is talking about how the Old Testament sacrifices were not capable of saving us from our sins, but rather, they served as a reminder of our sins so that people would remember, repent, and continue to follow the laws and commandments of God (Hebrews 10:3-4).  "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  (Heb. 10:14)  Who were the sanctified?  Those who kept the laws and commandments of God, and in the New Testament, those who were sanctified by water and spirit; those who were baptized and had received the Spirit or Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.  Then Paul goes on to explain the covenant in verses 13-16; "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."  In other words, Jesus Christ would give us the new and everlasting covenant; he would teach us the HIGHER laws and commandments of God.  We are to keep them in our hearts and minds always.  This is the covenant we make with him at baptism, we promise to keep and obey the laws and commandments of God, and IF we do, then our sins and iniquities are forgiven and will no longer be remembered by him.  However, where there is a remission of these laws (if we DON'T abide by God's laws and commandments), then there is no more offering or sacrifice for our sins.  In other words, the atonement will have no effect upon our sins.  Verse 36 states: "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise." 

    This is the third place in this chapter (unless I've missed one) that states if or after we DO the will of God, which is to obey Him by keeping His laws and commandments, only THEN, will we receive the promise of the atonement for the forgiveness of our sins.  This is the everlasting covenant that is binding; we make a promise to God, He makes a promise to us.  This is the second half of the atonement that traditional Christianity doesn't understand because they have been led astray by traditions that were instituted by early philosophers in the centuries following the death of the apostles.  They had the world believing that we are saved just by BELIEVING in Christ, but what they failed to recognize was that the TRUE believers in Christ not only believed in him, but they followed his teachings, they kept and obeyed the laws and commandments of God and lived by the new and everlasting covenant.  This is what made them sanctified and just, and righteous in the eyes of God and not in the eyes of the world.  They were spiritually perfect (not physically perfect) because they OBEYED all of the laws and commandments of God, not some, but all.  This is why Job was considered a PERFECT man in the eyes of God; he obeyed God in ALL things.  He was spiritually perfect, not physically.  However, Christians today still look at perfection as something physical.  The FIRST part of the atonement was given by the grace of Christ; we are saved, but what we are saved from is death; that's why he is our Savior, he saved us from death so that we may have eternal life.  But again, this was given to ALL men, both just and unjust, whether they believe or not (Acts 24:15 . . . "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.").

     Everyone will be resurrected, everyone will live again regardless of what we do.  That is why our works don't matter, because we are saved from death regardless of our works; this is the grace of Christ, this is what his death and resurrection covered.  The atonement part, however, is a new and everlasting covenant or promise, and it contains a certain condition; a promise from us to keep and obey the laws and commandments of God for which we are rewarded with a promise from Him, that we will have eternal life in His Kingdom.  Not only are we saved from death, but we are also rewarded according to our works; this is where the Judgment takes place.  Those who were obedient in ALL things will live in His Kingdom as joint-heirs with Christ.  Those who were less obedient will live in a lesser mansion according to what they have earned.

    I find this all to be in perfect harmony with the scriptures; there is nothing that is left out, there is no contradiction.  It explains why Christ said we will be judged by our works, by every word that proceeds out of our mouth, that we will reap what we sow.  It ties in the missing pieces between belief and works, and above all, when I really think about it, it makes more sense than any other explanation I have ever heard from any other pastor or denomination.  There are no gaps that leave me confused, everything is as plain as day.


    ("I don't know the reference, but I think that we're supposed to test everything we hear and measure it with scripture. I won't rely on a spiritual experience for my soul. I'll test it to what I read in the Bible, which I believe is in perfect harmony with itself.")


    From what I've read there are two ways to know whether something is true or not, and neither involves trusting someone else's opinions, teachings, or beliefs.  They also don't involve comparing or testing things to what we read, because our eyes can deceive us as well as our ears; thus the scripture, "They have eyes but do not see, and ears but do not hear."

    John 7:17   If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 

    If we keep God's laws and commandments, and DO what He asks us to do, then we will know it is His will because of all the blessings that will be poured out upon us; because we will HAVE the gift of the Holy Ghost by which to discern with.  However, since there is so much confusion over doctrine and what is the will of God and what isn't, this method isn't really reliable.  And most people do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost by which to discern with. 

    James 1:5-7   If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.  For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 

    Who can we trust above all else?  Christ has told us to pray always, regarding all matters and aspects of our lives.  That's one thing that many people seem to forget or don't take the time to do; and even if they do pray, they are usually too busy to stay there awhile and listen for an answer.  We should turn to God, our Father in Heaven, and ask Him whether or not something is true.  But even here, certain conditions apply if we want to receive an answer; it's not just given to us just like that.  First of all, look up the word upbraid in the dictionary if you don't know what it means.  It means we should come to Him in humility, not with an attitude of reproach or telling God that what we know is right and we want Him to confirm it for us, but rather with the attitude that we know nothing compared to what He can teach us, and that we will accept whatever it is He decides to reveal to us whether we want to believe it or not.  We must give up our will for His will.  Second of all we must have faith.  We must come to Him expecting and knowing that we will receive an answer according to His will, in His own time.  We must not doubt this or let our own thoughts and answers take over for if we do, we waver as the wave of the sea, going back and forth with our thinking and decisions, not knowing and still be in a state of confusion.  Too many people want answers right away but are not willing to wait, to listen for that still small voice to witness to their hearts and minds; too many mistake their own answers as answers from God because they do not understand that the Spirit works through the heart.  If you feel a warm peaceful feeling, a burning in the bosom, an overwhelming love and peace encompassing you, some have even heard the still small voice; then that is the Spirit testifying to your heart.  If you still have a stupor of thought, or just focus on your own thoughts regarding the matter without experiencing the previous signs of the Spirit; then you have not received an answer.  The last sentence of the verse states that if we come to the Lord with doubts then we will not receive an answer.  Throughout the New Testament we're told how the Spirit searches our hearts and knows whether we are humble and sincere, or if we are caught up in our own pride and are just looking for conformation of what we already know.  We must forget what we know and come before God as a little child willing to listen, willing to learn, willing to do His will.
     
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Sunday, 19 April 2009

  • In response to newguy153@xanga :

    I think you're absolutely right on many of the points you mentioned, and I too, do not doubt the sincerity of your heart in what you believe.  I also agree that our sincerity has nothing to do with truth because truth exists no matter what we believe or how sincere we are about it.  One can be just as sincere in believing lies as they can in believing truth and not know the difference.  However, I also believe that in order to discover or find truth we must search with an open mind because if we limit ourselves to what we want to hear then we may never come to the full knowledge of truth.

    If you are happy in what you believe, and the church you attend brings you joy in your heart, peace in your soul, and comfort in your needs, then by all means, embrace it and enjoy it.  Like I said, many churches do a lot of good in the world and many have saved people from a life of drugs, crime, poverty, and death.  That they do a lot of good in the world, I have no doubt.

    But to me, it's kind of like going to a banquet where there's turkey, pot roast, ham, cakes, pies, vegetables, and all other kinds of food that will feed and nourish us. We can pick and choose from whatever we want to eat, and even though the food is good there still seems to be something missing.  The turkey has no stuffing, the pot roast is dry, the ham has no glaze, the cakes are without frosting, the pies are skimpy on the filling, the vegetables have no seasoning, etcetera.  Then I go to another banquet where turkey is stuffed full of dressing with all the trimmings, the pot roast is so moist and tender it falls apart in the broth and juices it was cooked in.  The ham has the most delicious glaze I've ever tasted, the cakes are elegantly decorated with the finest of frostings, the pies are bursting with filling, and the vegetables are perfectly seasoned so as to bring out the best of flavor.

    I have been where you are, and I do understand where you're coming from, really I do. But I also realize the reality of things by the research I've done on the history of Christianity.  Things are not consistent and as I've pointed out, there are many things that contradict each other, things that the majority of Christian pastors cannot explain which, in my opinion, if they had the gift of the Holy Ghost they should be able to explain and all agree upon the same thing as the apostles taught.  We cannot single out or pick and choose whatever scriptural verses we want to believe and ignore the rest. This is the point I'm trying to make. God is the same now as He was back then, He is a living God, not a dead one who will never intervene or interact with His children again.  To say that He will never speak again or that the heavens are closed and there will never be prophets or new revelations ever again means that He is NOT the same God.  That thinking is a limitation that men have placed on God because of their own ignorance in not understanding the scriptures, which is why they argued and debated over things while compiling these writings.

    From the very beginning God has always spoken to men, even when mankind fell through Adam He continued to communicate to men through His chosen servants, prophets and later apostles, and others who were called, ordained, and set apart to do His work.  He has said that He would do nothing except it be through these servants the prophets.  Proverbs 29:18 also points out that where there is no vision (revelations) the people perish.  If you have read the Bible over and over again I would think that you would discover that the only times that God has turned His head and left people to themselves, is when they were NOT keeping His laws and commandments, when they were NOT obedient to His words, but instead, followed after their own will and desires.  These are the only times that He did NOT speak to them because they were disobedient.

    Again, what were they doing when they were arguing and debating over the doctrines?  They were NOT following the counsel of Paul, Peter, and the other prophets when they were warning the saints of these of these things and to not follow after these vain teachings; in other words, they were disobedient to the counsel of the apostles, they ignored the promptings of the Spirit, and followed after their own desires.  The apostles of God were all killed, men continued to debate over doctrines, even daring to make changes to them to suit their own greedy agendas for power and status in the eyes of the world.  This again is documented history by many traditional Christian authors, not LDS ones.  Because of this disobedience, the power and authority of God was withdrawn and men were again left to themselves, only this time, it was to be for a long period of time; no more prophets, no more revelations.  This has been the state of the world ever since and is why there are so many different denominations, each following after their own beliefs and desires according to how THEY interpret the scriptures.  But again, without the Spirit of God, or the gift of the Holy Ghost, the true meaning of the scriptures cannot be interpreted by men because without the Spirit they are unable to discern spiritual things.

    Imagine that you have a couple of teenagers of your own.  They want to go out with their friends to a party at one of their houses.  Some of these friends are rather wild and you don't approve of them so what do you do?  You lay down some rules; the party has to be supervised by an adult, they can go if there's no alcohol consumption or drugs, etc., they need to be home by midnight, and so on.  Let's say that your kids decide not to follow your rules and they end up drinking and doing foolish things, and someone gets killed because your child drove home while intoxicated.  You may be angry, and your kid must pay the consequences for his behavior and actions even if he is sorry for disobeying you.  He is still responsible for his own actions and must be held accountable for them, whether or not he realizes he was wrong and is sorry for them. 

    Now just because he disobeyed you and did something really terrible, does this mean you are going to be angry with him forever, never speaking to him again, never forgiving him.  Maybe some parents would.  But I can tell you this; I know that God, who is more loving than any of us are capable of, whose ways and thoughts are higher than our own; will NOT remain silent forever.  He may have been angry because of our disobedience, because we not only killed his Son, but also those whom he has sent to teach us by revelation (his prophets and apostles), but He will not leave us to ourselves forever.  He has ALWAYS spoken to men and who's to say He will never speak again?  I know He's a forgiving, loving, God and is perfectly able to speak again when HE wants to speak.  And He has said He would do nothing except through his servants, the prophets (Amos 3:7).  This is how He has ALWAYS communicated to men, especially after the death of Christ.  This is the purpose of a prophet, to act as a mouthpiece for God.  Without prophets, without vision and revelation, the world will perish.

    The atonement of Christ covers two things.  The DEATH of the Savior and the RESURRECTION of the Savior.  Traditional Christianity combines these two events into one and mistakenly teaches that we are saved from our sins and can automatically enter the kingdom of God because of it. This causes contradictions of scripture; they cling to the verses that say we are saved if we believe, yet totally ignore everything else that Christ taught regarding the fact that we will be judged according to our works.  There is no harmony in this and it causes confusion and misinterpretations.  The true meanings were lost during the debates and arguments after the apostles and surviving members were killed.  This is why there had to be a restoration of truth, the full truth, not just parts of it. They were essential to our eternal salvation and without the fullness of truth we cannot be saved.

    Part of the atonement covers the resurrection of Christ.  Because he was resurrected and lives again, we too, will be able to overcome death.  This is what we are saved from, DEATH; this is his free gift of grace to us; because he overcame death and was resurrected, we will also be resurrected thus overcoming death and live once again.  It is mentioned in the Bible that this free gift is given to ALL men both good and evil, not just to believers in Christ.  This is another error that we have been taught through the "traditions" of our forefathers; that only the believers are saved.  We are all saved from death and will have eternal life.  What TYPE of eternal life we'll have (HOW we'll live in the eternities) depends entirely upon us.  This is where the judgment comes into play after the resurrection.  We will live an eternal life of glory of some sort, or we will live an eternal life of damnation.

    The part of the atonement that covers the death of Christ is conditional.  Yes, he did indeed die for our sins . . . IF we would come unto him, IF we would follow him, IF we continue to keep and obey the commandments of God; THAT is the condition upon which our sins are covered; IF we believe, we will obey, period.  "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).  Christ's death and resurrection are two different events, and each is covered in separate ways in the atonement.  THIS is the new and everlasting COVENANT of which Christ and his apostles speak of.  IF we believe in Jesus Christ we will enter into this new and everlasting covenant in which WE promise to not only repent of our sins (by no longer committing them), but to also keep and obey his laws and commandments and to continue living in righteousness.  In return our sins will be covered by the atonement of Christ.  This is a two-way covenant; we make a promise to do something to the Lord, and we receive a promise from him in return.  This is why the scriptures state that the only sins we are forgiven of are the ones that we have forsaken, and that if we continue in sin while knowing it's a sin then there is no atonement for that sin. (Romans 3:5; Hebrews 10:26).

    Everything I have stated is in the Bible and it doesn't cause contradictions, but rather it fills in the missing pieces to bring everything together in harmony so that there is no longer any more contradictions. This is why prophets and continuing revelations are necessary . . . to correct the mistakes of men who erred in their understanding of the scriptures and taught according to their own knowledge and learning.

    The difference is . . . while these early philosophers took it upon themselves to interpret the scriptures they were not inspired by the Spirit of God because they had not received the Spirit of God by the laying on of hands of those with authority.  They instead disobeyed the counsel of the apostles and went on to debate and argue over the doctrines after being warned NOT to.  The power and authority of God (His holy priesthood and the power of the Holy Ghost) were withdrawn from the earth because of the disobedience and unrighteousness of men.  If left in this state forever the whole world would perish.  Because God had not spoken since, we have been taught that He would NEVER speak again.  We have been given partial truths for centuries, but we cannot be saved without the fullness of truth and the saving ordinances that are required.  These things had to be restored by divine intervention because there was no one left on the earth who had the power and authority to act in the name of God.  That is something that one cannot just take upon himself, but God will choose whom He will choose, and just like in the ancient days, he does not choose the wise and learned men of the world because they are too caught up in their own wisdom and pride, but he chooses those who are insignificant in the world, the unlearned, the humble and meek.

    Joseph Smith, on the other hand, was not seeking for his own followers, he was merely trying to find out which of the existing churches he should join. Because of the sincerity of his heart and other reasons known only to God, he was chosen to lay the foundation for the restoration of all things that had been lost because of the disobedience and errors of men. This event was also prophesied of in the Bible (Acts 3:21; Matthew 17:11).  He, like the apostles of old, was not chosen by men, he did not take it upon himself to do this work, but he was chosen, called, and ordained by God because of the sincerity of his heart and the humbleness of his soul.  This is the difference between Joseph Smith and those early Christian philosophers who compiled the Bible.  They did not have the Spirit of God because they had never received it from one who had the authority to give it.  Joseph was given not only the gift of the Holy Ghost by Peter, James, and John, who restored this power and authority upon Him, but also the everlasting priesthood of Christ as well as all the keys of the kingdom to bind and seal all things on heaven and earth, just as the early apostles had.  The early philosophers used their own wisdom and knowledge to decipher the scriptures and doctrines; Joseph went to the Lord and asked him.  The early philosophers changed the doctrines and ordinances; Joseph restored them according to the requirements of God as he was prompted and taught by the Spirit (by revelation just as the ancient prophets were taught).

    Given the history of the Bible and the things we have been taught, I find that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints comes closer to the truth than any other church could ever hope to.  Again, everything I have stated is also in the Bible.  If you truly believe the Bible to be the word of God, then everything must be in harmony and you must also believe everything, not just the sections that you want to believe.  I'm sorry, but after thoroughly researching things, as well as praying with an open and honest heart, I can tell you that I had been prepared to die in order to find the truth, I had some very spiritual experiences that led me to this church.  If you'd like to hear about it, I'd be more than willing to share those experiences.  When a person has an open and sincere heart and is willing to give up his/her own life in order to find truth, who is WILLING to accept ANYTHING that the Lord would reveal to us instead of what we WANT to hear; then I don't believe that the Lord would lead that person astray or would allow Satan to do so as well.  There is a difference in seeking to defend our own will and desires and seeking to find God's will and desires.  The only way is truly asking God to search our own hearts, to ask what His will is, and to let go of ours no matter what they are.

    If you're going to base your eternal salvation on a few specific verses of the Bible that have been interpreted by men, who did not follow the counsel of the apostles, then that is certainly your right and your decision.  However, I consider my eternal salvation to be so important that it's worth investigating and researching all claims of truth, not just what we have been taught for centuries by others who claim their teachings are right.  The more research I've done, the more I'm certain that I am that we have been led astray, just based on the history of it all.  God is not a God of confusion, He wants us to know truth, He wants us to know Him, but as long as we blindly cling to traditions, we will never come to the knowledge of real truth.

    He sent prophets for a reason . . . to speak on His behalf through and by the power of the Holy Ghost so that we would not be deceived by the traditions of men.  He would do nothing except through the mouth of prophets whom He has called and ordained.  No one can take this power and authority upon themselves; it must be given to them by God.  When there are no prophets it's because of the wickedness of men when they refuse to listen to God, when they kill the prophets he has sent and refuse to obey the laws and commandments of God.  This has been the case for hundreds and hundreds of years, but He has promised that He would restore all things once again in the latter-days. There would be a time of refreshing when He would restore prophets once again so that the world would no longer be led astray by the teachings of men.  The power, authority, and keys of the kingdom of God have all been restored in their fullness so that we today can have the fullness of truth, the everlasting doctrines and ordinances that are necessary for our eternal salvation.  It is the final preparation before Christ comes for the last time to gather the righteous.

    I too, believe that this is a serious matter.  However, unlike you, I don't believe that you are going to Hell, but that you will have some degree of glory, just not the best; heck, I still may not even get the best myself despite all I've done.  But I do know that we are at least saved from death through the grace of Christ, but we must earn our own salvation in one of the many mansions which has been prepared for us.  If it were NOT true, then Christ would not have preached it all throughout his ministry and neither would his apostles.

    Again, I wish you the best, and while I do believe in the sincerity of your heart, I hope that you will dig in and do some more research on things because you're eternal salvation is that important too.  But with all due respect, the decision is yours and yours alone, and you can believe whatever you will.  Nothing I nor anyone else can say will compare to what you can discover on your own when you ask God in all humility of heart.  I thank you for your courage and for your willingness to share your point of view.  I think you are a wonderful person and have no doubt that you do a lot of good despite whether you believe it's necessary or not.  None of us are perfect, that's for sure, and we're all here to help one another and the more we can get along the better the world will be.  I may be LDS, but I did go to Easter Service with my husband over at the First Baptist Church because a lot of his friends (who are also my friends) attend church there and invited us.  They had a great music program and I enjoyed talking with the pastor.

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Saturday, 04 April 2009

  • Baptism For the Dead and Other Thoughts

    This is in response to a comment I received on my last post.  Because of the length I've decided to post this as a separate blog.


    Comment:

    Baptism for the Dead
    To my understanding, the passage in 1 Corinthians was referring to the pagan worship. Even they believed in baptism and the physical resurrection for the dead. The idea that he's talking about others is supported when he says in verse 30, "And as for us..."

    Regardless, whether one practices baptism for the dead or not does not affect their salvation.

    #7, 14:  I'd love to here your thoughts on Baptism for the dead


    My Response:

    Interesting article, however this may or may not have merit to it based upon two things. First of all, it wasn't just the Corinthians, but eventually the majority of church members eventually fell into apostasy because they rejected the counsel of the apostles and debated over the doctrines and followed after these vain or false teachings that were commonly circulated during those times.  This is nothing new, the downfall of the church was prophesied by Christ and his apostles. Secondly, you can't go by grammatical differences because again, the Bible had been translated so many times and had so many changes made to it back then that many things have been taken out of context before we even received the final version.

    One reason he said they instead of we is because not just anyone performed these baptisms for the dead.  Just like certain priests were called to do certain things in the Old Testament, there were certain people ordained to perform these ordinances.  The apostles themselves did not typically perform these ordinances; they mainly traveled preaching the gospel, making sure the churches were all in order and teaching the same things and were united as one. They performed some baptisms and other ordinances here and there, but typically, they took care of the organization of the church and made sure things were done properly and in order.

    Baptism is an essential ordinance that is required in ordered to enter the Kingdom of God, not only here on earth (into His church), but also in Heaven.  It is one of the essential keys that binds the earthly ordinances to heaven and the blessings of heaven to those on the earth.

    John 3:5   Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

    Baptism by water is the physical ordinance that links or binds us to God. It is a covenant that proves our belief by accepting His will and by promising to keep and obey His laws and commandments.  Baptism by fire, or the ordinance of receiving the Spirit (the gift of the Holy Ghost), is what links us spiritually with God.  It is through the Spirit that we are able to discern truth from error. . . spiritual truths from man-made truths. It is through this Spirit which they had received that the saints of old were taught by the apostles and were led, guided, directed, comforted by, warned by, and which witnessed and testified of spiritual matters to their hearts.  This is why the apostles warned them not to depart from this Spirit through unrighteous actions, but to continue in faith and live according to what they had been taught by the prophets and apostles of Christ.

    Matthew 16:19   And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

    These keys of the kingdom of heaven were not given to just anyone, and they couldn't be taken upon by oneself either.  They are what distinguished Christ's church from all the other false Christian sects of the time. It's why Peter rebaptized those who were baptized into another church.  It is why Simon was denied his desire to be given the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands; he had no part or rights in that matter.

    Now to go back to the baptism of the dead.  How many people who have lived upon this earth have never even had the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ much less receive his gospel and the necessary ordinances required to enter God's Kingdom?  Millions upon millions of souls would be lost and not through any fault of their own.  How could God be a just God who is no respecter of persons, if these people were to have no hope of salvation because they died without the gospel ordinances?  The Bible says that God provided something better for them and for us, a second chance so to speak.  If they didn't have the opportunity to hear the gospel while living, they could hear it in the spirit world.  This is why Jesus Christ taught the gospel to those who were in prison, in the spirit world of paradise during the three days between his death and resurrection.  While in the spirit world they have the opportunity to hear the gospel, but that's not enough.  They also need to have the saving ordinances that are required to enter into the kingdom of God, which is baptism by fire and water.  These are earthly ordinances that require a physical body to obtain.  Spirits do not have physical bodies. Therefore, something better was provided for them.  In Hebrews 11 around verse 35 or so, Paul is explaining how all these people died.  They were good people who believed in Christ and may have had the gospel, but they received not the promise.  Why?  Because for some reason or another, they never received the required ordinances of baptism by fire and water.  Therefore, God provided something better . . . a last chance or opportunity that involved the living who provided these ordinances through proxy; the living were baptized for the dead and performed all the saving ordinances by proxy for the dead.  This is the ONLY way that God could be a just and merciful God to ALL men, both living and dead.  This is the only way that ALL men could have the opportunity to hear the gospel (if not in this life, in the spirit world), and the only way that they too could be saved.  If they accept the gospel in the spirit world, then the required ordinances could be performed for them by proxy through those who were living.

    Hebrews 11:39-40
    39   And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
    40   God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

    1 Corinthians 15:18-19
    18   Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
    19   If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.

    1 Corinthians 15:29   Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

    Paul is speaking to the Corinthians here, who did not believe in the resurrection, and is testifying to them that Christ did indeed rise again; he's testifying of all those who have seen him after his resurrection and of the purpose of the resurrection.  He asks why are they performing baptisms for the dead if the dead rise not.  Because the resurrection is real.  It WILL happen and the significance of it is so important that the saving ordinances are required if we are to enter the kingdom of God; this is why they are baptized for the dead, to help in the assistance of the saving of souls who died without the required ordinances of baptism by fire and water.  This is why the hearts of the children have turned to their fathers and vice versa.  Paul goes on to explain the resurrection and the differences of glory that will be obtained, but this is another topic entirely of itself.

    I hope this helps to explain our point of view somewhat. If you really take the time to not just think about it, but to really ponder it over in your mind, doesn't it make sense at all.  I mean, how else could God be no respecter of persons, and how else could He be just and merciful to all if people never even had the opportunity to even hear about Jesus Christ?  I would hate to think that someone would be condemned to hell just because he never had the opportunity to accept the Savior and his teachings.

    1 Peter 4:6   For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

    By being taught the gospel in the spirit world and accepting it, they can then receive the required ordinances by proxy through those who are living.  They will then be able to live according to God in the spirit, and when they are resurrected, they too can be judged according to men in the flesh because they will have no excuse then; if they didn't hear and accept the gospel in this world, they have one more chance in the spirit world.

    This is a beautiful plan of salvation that is just and merciful to all men.  It may sound odd to those who have never heard it (it did to me also at first, but after pondering it over and over again, it really does make sense.  Of course, if you believe that you are saved by your belief only, then this may make no sense to you.  I have always thought that just believing was too easy because Christ said:  "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."  (John7:17)  In order to understand and know the true doctrines of God, we must do His will; keep and obey His laws and commandments.  By doing these things we are righteous according to His righteousness and not the world's view of righteousness.  Then we can have His Spirit to be with us, to lead, guide, direct, warn, comfort, testify and witness, reveal, and teach us the truth of all things.  This is the duty and purpose of the gift of the Holy Ghost; and is why Simon could not give this gift, because he was not authorized to do so.  It was only given to those who were baptized into Christ's church by those who had the keys and authority to perform these sacred ordinances (again, why some were re-baptized into the true church by those who had the direct authority to perform this ordinance Acts 19:1-7).

    Truth was not revealed to those who were not members of the church.  "And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables: That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them."  (Mark 4:11-12)  Those who were without the Spirit or the gift of the Holy Ghost, were not given the truth about the mysteries of God.  They were left with parables which could be interpreted several ways, but only those with the Spirit could find the true interpretations because they had the Spirit by which to discern natural things from spirtual things.

    Because I had not been raised in any particular denomination, I wasn't constantly told what things in the Bible meant; I didn't have certain teachings or interpretations ingrained into my head as a child; I therefore, was not biased in any way, but was open to everything I could learn about religion.  Yes I saw things in the Bible, but the contradictions didn't make sense.  And they are there whether people want to believe it or not.  I for one, just couldn't accept one thing and ignore everything else that didn't support it or that was in direct opposition somewhere else.  Those are the errors of men who could not have been inspired of God because they did not have the Spirit of God; they couldn't have if they were going against the counsel of the prophets and apostles by arguing and debating over the doctrines.  They were left to decipher the scriptures themselves, using their own minds and judgments, and this is why so many things were changed, altered, thrown out, rewritten, etc.; and why the Bible contains not only the words of God, but these truths have been mingled with the philosophies of the world so that the Bible is confusing to those who read it.  Things have been taken out of context for centuries and these are the "traditions" that modern Christianity has adhered to for ages.  The essential teachings and ordinances that are necessary for our eternal salvation have been altered by men throughout the ages and lost.  That is why there had to be a restoration or restitution of all things; so that we could once again have not only the keys of the kingdom of heaven, which is the power and authority to act in the name of God through His Holy Priesthood of Melchizedik and through the power of the Holy Ghost; but to once again have the saving ordinances of baptism by fire and water by those who hold these keys of power and authority. 

    These things are essential to our eternal life and salvation, and without them we cannot enter into the kingdom of God.  Jesus Christ taught this and so did his apostles, and I for one, cannot deny it just because I see the words, "If we believe, we are saved."  There is more to it than that.  Yes we are saved from death; yes, we will live again.  But we will ALSO be judged AFTER we are resurrected to life.  After we are judged we will either live an eternal life of happines as heirs with Jesus Christ in our Father's kingdom; or in some other mansion of glory that was prepared for us; or we will live a life of eternal damnation.  THIS choice is ours according to our works.  It is written in the Bible far more than just believing.  If we believe only, we have only a part of the truth and not the whole truth.  This is how Satan traps us.  We cannot just ignore everything else that Christ and his apostles taught.  That is why we cannot just rely on what we hear or read; we must humble ourselves in our own knowledge and wisdom, give his words a try and attempt to keep God's laws and commandments, and kneel before God, confess our sins, ask His forgiveness, and ask Him about the things we have learned. If we seek and ask in humility, and are willing to listen to and accept His will over ours, then He will manifest the truth to you.  But again, HE will search your heart and know of your sincerity.  This is how we gain our OWN tesimony. It's how I gained mine.

    I have seen the difference between this church and all the others I have attended.  I have witnessed the power and authority of the priesthood and Spirit in action.  I have seen miracles; I have had experiences you wouldn't believe.  While the others all do a lot of good in the world and have brought happiness and blessings to many people, they are just the cake, they are the house that's wired and ready to go.  In this church, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, I have found the sweetest of frostings with all the beautiful details intact; I have found all the wired connections connected directly with our Father in Heaven with a continual flow of blessings.  Besides the Savior and what he did for us, the gift of the Holy Ghost is the most greatest gift that anyone can receive today.  It is what the saints of old were taught by, it was how they were prompted in righteousness, it was how they were able to discern spiritual things from natural, right from wrong.  It comforted them in times of trials and turmoil, and it revealed things that were of the past, present, and of things yet to come. It was intended to be for all generations as long as people remained righteous in keeping the laws and commandments of God.

    Acts 2:38-39
    38   Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remiision of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
    39   For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.


    It is by having this Spirit, the gift of the Holy Ghost, that we may know the truth of all things if we remain righteous in keeping the laws and commandments of God.

    Acts 5:32   And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that OBEY him.

    The key word here is obey.  That is the key to how much we receive from God, to how much He will reveal to us.  He won't reveal more if we can't even do what He has already given to us.  Look at the world today and compare how we live our lives to those who followed Christ anciently.  They obeyed His laws and commandments while most in the world today don't even believe in Him and are trying to eliminate Him altogether.

    I would encourage you to at least think about some of these things, I mean really think about them. Then settle it between yourself and the Lord by trying to do all that you can and ask if you could have a portion of His Spirit so that you may know whether these things are true or not. Ask for that burning witness of the Spirit in your heart.  This is all I can do. This is all you can do.  In all sincerity, and in the name of Jesus Christ, I hope you find it; Amen.

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Monday, 30 March 2009

Sunday, 29 March 2009

  • A Comparison of Churches


    The following shows a comparison of the Church of Jesus Christ as he established it in the New Testament, the restored Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints (LDS), and the "traditional" Christian churches of today.  The church that Christ established is shown in red.  The LDS or Mormon church is in green.  The traditional Christian churches throughout history are grouped together as one and is shown in black.  The asterisk denotes similarities of the three groups.

    1.  Christ was the chief cornerstone and the head of his church, which he built on the foundation of apostles and prophets.*
    1.  Christ is the chief cornerstone and the head of his church, which was restored with the foundation of apostles and prophets.*
    1.  Christ may be the chief cornerstone of these churches, but none claim to have a foundation of apostles and prophets.

    2.  His church was called in his name (the Church of Jesus Christ) and there were several branches or stakes throughout the land (the church at Ephesus, at Sardis, Colosse, Corinth, Galatia, etcetera).  Members were called saints and brethren.*
    2.  The church is called in Jesus’ name.  There are several branches, wards, and stakes throughout the world.  Members are called saints and brethren.  “Of Latter-Day Saints” was added to the name to distinguish the saints in these latter days from the saints of old.*
    2.  Most are not called in his name.  Christ’s name doesn’t even appear at all in the name of many (if not most) of these churches.  Members are not called saints in most.

    3.  Had a direct and divine line of authority necessary to carry out the work and ordinances of Christ and to bind and seal all things on earth and in heaven.*
    3. Has a direct and divine line of authority which was restored by Jesus Christ and others—with all the power, authority, and the keys of the kingdom given to perform ordinances that will bind and seal all things on earth and in heaven.*
    3.  Most may claim, but do not have a direct and divine line of authority from Christ or any of his followers who had the power and authority to perform sacred ordinances, and to bind and seal all things on earth and in heaven.      The Roman Catholic Church is the only other one that could logically claim this line of authority since all other churches either broke away from the Roman Church or from one of the broken branches, or were self-started by men who took it upon themselves to start another church.  Why would Christ give someone else authority to change his original doctrines and ordinances, and why would he authorize so many churches that teach according to their own interpretations of the scriptures; some believing one way and others believing another way?

    4.  Was organized—other offices were appointed to those who were chosen, called, and ordained by the laying on of hands by one who held the power and authority to perform these ordinances.*
    4.  Is organized in the same manner as Christ’s original church.  All offices are appointed to those who are chosen, called, and ordained by the laying on of hands by one who has the power and authority to perform these ordinances.*
    4.  Are not organized in the same manner as Christ’s original church.  Do not have all the original offices that were appointed by the laying on of hands by one with authority.  Do not even have the basic foundation of apostles and prophets because they all believe that God has nothing to say in our day and age concerning the special circumstances of our time.

    5.  Had no paid ministry.  Members cheerfully and freely gave of their time, talents, labor, and substance for the building up of the church and the kingdom of God.*
    5.  Has no paid ministry.  Members cheerfully and freely give of their time, talents, labor, and substance for the building up of the church and the kingdom of God.*
    5.  Many of these churches (if not most) have a paid ministry.  Not only are the clergy paid but in some churches, other lay positions or offices are paid as well.  Many members willingly and freely give of their time, talents, labor, and substance for the building up of their church and what they call the kingdom of God.

    6.  Was a missionary church.  Those who were called to preach the gospel were ordained by the laying on of hands and were sent out two by two to preach the gospel.*
    6.  Is a missionary church.  Missionaries are called and ordained by the laying on of hands, and sent out two by two to preach the gospel to every kindred, tongue, and nation.*
         6.  Many churches have missionaries as well but may have different procedures of sending them out.*

    7.  Members were baptized by immersion as Christ was, to symbolize his death and burial, and the raising of the dead to the resurrection of eternal life.*
    7.  Members are baptized by immersion as Christ was, to symbolize his death and burial, and the raising of the dead to the resurrection of eternal life.*
    7.  Some churches baptize by immersion, and others baptize by sprinkling.  Some do not require baptism at all, and others will accept baptism transfers from another church.

    8.  By being baptized, members took upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, and entered into a covenant with him to keep and obey his everlasting doctrines and commandments.*
    8.  When baptized, members take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ, and enter into a covenant with him to keep and obey his everlasting doctrines and commandments.*
    8.  Members may take upon themselves the name of Jesus Christ by professing their belief in him, but may or may not covenant to keep and obey his doctrines and commandments.

     9.  The gift of the Holy Ghost was bestowed by the laying on of hands.*
    9.  The gift of the Holy Ghost is bestowed by the laying on of hands.*
    9.  Most do not bestow the gift of the Holy Ghost either by the laying on of hands or by any other method.

    10.  Members were confirmed in his church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.*
    10.  Members are confirmed in the church and given the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.*
    10.  Some churches may confirm their members but many just welcome them into the church by way of announcement to the congregation.  Many have different beliefs regarding the Holy Ghost.

    11.  Members were admonished to continually observe, keep, and obey the doctrines, commandments, and ordinances of God as taught by Jesus Christ; which were to be a part of His everlasting covenant, not to changed or modified by men.*
    11.  Members are admonished to continually observe, keep, and obey the doctrines, commandments, and ordinances of God as taught by Jesus Christ; which are a part of His everlasting covenant, not to be changed or modified by men.*
    11.  Members may or may not be admonished to continually observe, keep, and obey the doctrines, commandments, and ordinances of God as taught by Jesus Christ.  Many believe it is no longer necessary to do so—that we are saved by our belief in Christ only. Many of the doctrines, commandments, and ordinances have been changed or altered, and even tossed out or done away with by men.

    12.  Members paid a ten percent tithing to the church for the building up of the kingdom.*
    12.  Members pay a ten percent tithing to the church for the building up of the kingdom.*
    12.  Many churches do not believe in paying a ten-percent tithe but will pass a collection plate in which members can donate what they will.  Many teach a ten percent tithing but many members do not pay the full amount.

    13.  Built holy temples dedicated to God in which sacred covenants and ordinances were performed.*
    13.  Builds holy temples dedicated to God in which sacred covenants and ordinances are performed.*
    13.  Do not have holy temples dedicated to God in which sacred covenants and ordinances are performed.

    14.  Practiced baptism for the dead.*
    14.  Practices baptism for the dead.*
    14.  Do not practice baptism for the dead.

    15.  Taught that God and Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct individuals with glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and that we are created in their image and likeness.*
    15.  Teaches that God and Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct individual with glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and that we are created in their image and likeness.*
    15.  Do not teach that God and Jesus Christ are two separate and distinct individuals with glorified bodies of flesh and bone, and that we are created in their image and likeness.  Many believe that God is without shape or form but yet, fills the entire universe.  Some believe that God and Jesus Christ are the same individual, rather than being one in purpose.  Others believe we are created in their image, but yet, that image is not a bodily shape or form like ours.  Many believe in the Trinity; that God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are all one entity that can be manifested as any of these three forms.  Beliefs vary, causing much confusion.

    16.  Performed the same works and miracles that Christ did—healed the sick, cast out evil spirits, raised the dead, etcetera, by the power and authority of the Holy Ghost and the holy Melchizedek Priesthood of Christ*
    16.  Performs the same works and miracles that Christ did—heals the sick, casts out evil spirits, raises the dead, etcetera, by the power and authority of the Holy Ghost and the holy Melchizedek Priesthood of Christ.*
    16.  Some pastors and ministers claim to perform miracles such as healing the sick and casting out evil spirits.  They may even succeed, but if they do so without the Spirit of God, it is not by or of God.  The Spirit of God or the Holy Ghost, was given by the laying on of hands of one who had the power and authority to give it.

    17.  Members were admonished, counseled, warned, edified, and chastened as necessary.*
    17.  Members are admonished, counseled, warned, edified, and chastened as necessary.*
    17.  Most also admonish, counsel, warn, edifiy, and chasten their members as necessary.*

    18. Those who committed serious crimes or sins were excommunicated but were received back into the church with open arms after the process of repentance.*
    18.  Those who commit serious crimes or sins are excommunicated but are received back into the church with open arms after the process of repentance.*
    18.  Those who commit serious crimes or sins may or may not be excommunicated, and may or may not be received back into the church with open arms after the process of repentance.

    19.  Members not only prayed often, but also fasted and paid a fast offering.*
    19.  Members not only pray often, but also fast and pay a fast offering.*
    19.  Many do not fast or collect fast offerings, although there are some that do.

    20. After Christ left, the church continued to receive instruction, counsel, guidance, and direction through revelations given to his servants, the apostles and prophets.  They taught by the spirit which they had received by the laying on of hands by those who had the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the Holy Ghost.*
    20. The church continues to receive instruction, counsel, guidance, and direction through revelations given to his servants, the apostles and prophets.  The church believes all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God in order to prepare His people for the calamities ahead, and for the second coming of Christ.  Leaders are taught by the spirit which they received by the laying on of hands of those who have the authority of the Melchizedek Priesthood and the Holy Ghost.*
    20.  Many do not believe in continued revelation—that it ceased with the death of the apostles and that the heavens were sealed.  They do not believe that God will ever speak to mankind again, and that all we will ever need is contained in the Bible.  In other words, God cannot and will not ever speak to mankind again.

    21.  Taught that we must believe in Christ AND follow his example in all things.*
    21.  Teaches that we must believe in Christ AND follow his example in all things.*
    21.  Teach that we must believe in Christ.  Some teach that we must also follow his example but not necessarily in all things.  Many claim that we are saved by our belief only and that the works we do don't matter because our sins are already justified.

    22.  The churches were not to have any contentions or divisions among them.  They were to be united in all things—in belief, in faith and in doctrine; being of one mind, heart, judgment, and accord; that they may be one (in purpose and deed) with Christ, as his apostles were one (in purpose and deed) with him, and as he is one (in purpose and deed) with his Father in Heaven.*
    22.  Within the church there are no contentions or divisions.  Every church, whether in the states or in Japan, Mexico, Fiji, Brazil, Korea, or in any other country or nation in the world—is united in all things.  The church is united in belief, in faith, in sound doctrine; being of one mind, heart, judgment, and accord; being one (in purpose and deed) with Christ, as his apostles were one (in purpose and deed) with him, and as he is one (in purpose and deed) with his Father in Heaven.*
    22.  Have contentions and divisions among themselves.  Even within a certain denomination there are differences in belief concerning doctrines.  There is no unity in faith or sound doctrine.  Everyone is divided in their own thinking and interpretations of the scriptures; there is no oneness of mind, heart, judgment, and accord.  There is no oneness in purpose and deed.  There is no unity in Christ except for the belief in his name and in some of his works and teachings.

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ChristiansandMormons

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    • Member Since: 2/26/2009

About This Blogsite

  • This is where I'll be blogging about some of the similarities and differences between mainstream Christianity and Mormons, including some of the reasons why they don't see eye to eye. I have seen too many debates and arguments over who is right and who is wrong, and people acting like complete idiots and jerks while trying to get their point across. While you are welcome to comment and post your opinions, there are some guidelines that I must insist upon: 1) Everyone must respond in a mature and civilized way, showing respect for others and their right to believe whatever they want. 2) Name-calling, foul or vulgar language, and derogatory remarks will not be tolerated and will be deleted. 3) While it's okay to disagree, it can still be done in a respectful manner. Please keep these things in mind when you post a comment. Thank you.

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