Friday, 08 May 2009

• Sin, Condemnation, and the Atonement

  The following is part of an ongoing discussion between newguy153@xanga and myself (see earlier posts and comments).  I want to say that I really appreciate his insight and his skill in being able to carry on a controversial conversation without losing control.  I have not met very many people who can do this and I not only commend him for it, but I highly admire and respect him for it as well.  He is very intelligent, and even though we disagree on many points, I sincerely enjoy our conversations and am learning things from him as well.  If anyone else would like to join in please check out the guidelines and conditions for participating here.
  
  
  I agree with you that God cannot allow any kind of sin in His presence, but Romans 8:1-2 reads, "There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.  For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."  Those who were in Christ were those who were baptized into his church, who made covenants to keep and obey God's laws and commandments, obedience being the key word and the law of the Spirit of life (God).  The members of his church did not walk after the flesh, in other words, they repented of their sins and no longer did those things that were unrighteous in the eyes of God.  If they did fall back into sin, as long as they sincerely repented and were willing to abandon that sin, they were forgiven through the atonement of Christ.  If they didn't repent and forsake that sin, then the sin was not covered by the atonement (Hebrews 10:26).  By following the laws and commandments of God, they were living righteously and were able to live by the promptings of the Spirit (the Holy Ghost which they had received by the laying on of hands after they were baptized into the church), rather than living just by the flesh.
  
  

  ("...because by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are being made holy." --Hebrews 10:14

  "forever" I think is the key word there. This is total justification we're talking about, not something temporary or incomplete.)

  I think a better key word would be "holy", those who are being made holy.  Who were they?  Those who had been sanctified by both water and Spirit; those who kept and obeyed the laws and commandments of God, who had entered the new and everlasting covenant.
  
  
  The whole chapter of Hebrews 10 is talking about how the Old Testament sacrifices were not capable of saving us from our sins, but rather, they served as a reminder of our sins so that people would remember, repent, and continue to follow the laws and commandments of God (Hebrews 10:3-4).  "For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."  (Heb. 10:14)  Who were the sanctified?  Those who kept the laws and commandments of God, and in the New Testament, those who were sanctified by water and spirit; those who were baptized and had received the Spirit or Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.  Then Paul goes on to explain the covenant in verses 13-16; "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.  Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."  In other words, Jesus Christ would give us the new and everlasting covenant; he would teach us the HIGHER laws and commandments of God.  We are to keep them in our hearts and minds always.  This is the covenant we make with him at baptism, we promise to keep and obey the laws and commandments of God, and IF we do, then our sins and iniquities are forgiven and will no longer be remembered by him.  However, where there is a remission of these laws (if we DON'T abide by God's laws and commandments), then there is no more offering or sacrifice for our sins.  In other words, the atonement will have no effect upon our sins.  Verse 36 states: "For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise." 
  
  This is the third place in this chapter (unless I've missed one) that states if or after we DO the will of God, which is to obey Him by keeping His laws and commandments, only THEN, will we receive the promise of the atonement for the forgiveness of our sins.  This is the everlasting covenant that is binding; we make a promise to God, He makes a promise to us.  This is the second half of the atonement that traditional Christianity doesn't understand because they have been led astray by traditions that were instituted by early philosophers in the centuries following the death of the apostles.  They had the world believing that we are saved just by BELIEVING in Christ, but what they failed to recognize was that the TRUE believers in Christ not only believed in him, but they followed his teachings, they kept and obeyed the laws and commandments of God and lived by the new and everlasting covenant.  This is what made them sanctified and just, and righteous in the eyes of God and not in the eyes of the world.  They were spiritually perfect (not physically perfect) because they OBEYED all of the laws and commandments of God, not some, but all.  This is why Job was considered a PERFECT man in the eyes of God; he obeyed God in ALL things.  He was spiritually perfect, not physically.  However, Christians today still look at perfection as something physical.  The FIRST part of the atonement was given by the grace of Christ; we are saved, but what we are saved from is death; that's why he is our Savior, he saved us from death so that we may have eternal life.  But again, this was given to ALL men, both just and unjust, whether they believe or not (Acts 24:15 . . . "there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.").
  
   Everyone will be resurrected, everyone will live again regardless of what we do.  That is why our works don't matter, because we are saved from death regardless of our works; this is the grace of Christ, this is what his death and resurrection covered.  The atonement part, however, is a new and everlasting covenant or promise, and it contains a certain condition; a promise from us to keep and obey the laws and commandments of God for which we are rewarded with a promise from Him, that we will have eternal life in His Kingdom.  Not only are we saved from death, but we are also rewarded according to our works; this is where the Judgment takes place.  Those who were obedient in ALL things will live in His Kingdom as joint-heirs with Christ.  Those who were less obedient will live in a lesser mansion according to what they have earned.
  
  I find this all to be in perfect harmony with the scriptures; there is nothing that is left out, there is no contradiction.  It explains why Christ said we will be judged by our works, by every word that proceeds out of our mouth, that we will reap what we sow.  It ties in the missing pieces between belief and works, and above all, when I really think about it, it makes more sense than any other explanation I have ever heard from any other pastor or denomination.  There are no gaps that leave me confused, everything is as plain as day.
  
  
  ("I don't know the reference, but I think that we're supposed to test everything we hear and measure it with scripture. I won't rely on a spiritual experience for my soul. I'll test it to what I read in the Bible, which I believe is in perfect harmony with itself.")
  
  
  From what I've read there are two ways to know whether something is true or not, and neither involves trusting someone else's opinions, teachings, or beliefs.  They also don't involve comparing or testing things to what we read, because our eyes can deceive us as well as our ears; thus the scripture, "They have eyes but do not see, and ears but do not hear."
  
  John 7:17   If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. 
  
  If we keep God's laws and commandments, and DO what He asks us to do, then we will know it is His will because of all the blessings that will be poured out upon us; because we will HAVE the gift of the Holy Ghost by which to discern with.  However, since there is so much confusion over doctrine and what is the will of God and what isn't, this method isn't really reliable.  And most people do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost by which to discern with. 
  
  James 1:5-7   If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.  But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering.  For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.  For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. 
  
  Who can we trust above all else?  Christ has told us to pray always, regarding all matters and aspects of our lives.  That's one thing that many people seem to forget or don't take the time to do; and even if they do pray, they are usually too busy to stay there awhile and listen for an answer.  We should turn to God, our Father in Heaven, and ask Him whether or not something is true.  But even here, certain conditions apply if we want to receive an answer; it's not just given to us just like that.  First of all, look up the word upbraid in the dictionary if you don't know what it means.  It means we should come to Him in humility, not with an attitude of reproach or telling God that what we know is right and we want Him to confirm it for us, but rather with the attitude that we know nothing compared to what He can teach us, and that we will accept whatever it is He decides to reveal to us whether we want to believe it or not.  We must give up our will for His will.  Second of all we must have faith.  We must come to Him expecting and knowing that we will receive an answer according to His will, in His own time.  We must not doubt this or let our own thoughts and answers take over for if we do, we waver as the wave of the sea, going back and forth with our thinking and decisions, not knowing and still be in a state of confusion.  Too many people want answers right away but are not willing to wait, to listen for that still small voice to witness to their hearts and minds; too many mistake their own answers as answers from God because they do not understand that the Spirit works through the heart.  If you feel a warm peaceful feeling, a burning in the bosom, an overwhelming love and peace encompassing you, some have even heard the still small voice; then that is the Spirit testifying to your heart.  If you still have a stupor of thought, or just focus on your own thoughts regarding the matter without experiencing the previous signs of the Spirit; then you have not received an answer.  The last sentence of the verse states that if we come to the Lord with doubts then we will not receive an answer.  Throughout the New Testament we're told how the Spirit searches our hearts and knows whether we are humble and sincere, or if we are caught up in our own pride and are just looking for conformation of what we already know.  We must forget what we know and come before God as a little child willing to listen, willing to learn, willing to do His will.
   
  

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